Wiki board/Archive 1

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This page is for general discussion on the content of this Wiki. You will find the conversation moved or removed as the topics are resolved, or edited as the topics evolve.


Yay... we are apparently #26 on the list of the Biggest Wikis. This is a big accomplishment as we're in the top 10 english Wikis on the Web. Now if we can only list every last Internet acronymn including all the "LOL"s we will be kings among men. KINGS AMONG MEN. -- Webfork

That page is wicked as hell. What're the chances of getting one of those Wiki graphs for this wiki? -- Amw
Ooh, that is a tight graph--thanks for pointing to it. Will definitely have to give graphing iA wiki a whirl... -- schvin
Oh, and by the way: interesting thing. If you do a search for "," you will get the page count they're using. I've been going through it today and i'm noticing there are a bunch of Talk pages that include commas for main entries that don't. More often than not, following the link to the main entry showed a one-sentence stub. I've been doing some spring-cleaning on those stubs today, but i think we should all have a bit of a browse through. -- Amw
The ancient changes RFE would resolve this sort of thing, should it be implemented. -- Sy
I already coded that for the Wikipedia software. It's called "ancient pages" :-). --Erik
Is a wiki the only kind of web page compatible with autonomy of the will? strider

I hope editors and contributors to this wiki and website in general realise that "We are on the radar" so to speak. I haven't seen the access logs of either, so I can only makes guesses. I'm talking about industry types, pro-copyright publishing media kinds regularly visiting. Users of this site should not assume its some underground hidden niche with nobody reading things. - ABliss

Yes, this is something I proposed in Terrorism/Talk and writing this type of work is not considered security through obscurity. For instance, I think it would be good PR to prosecute someone who has professed to be anti-copyright on a public forum for trading illegal files on a file sharing network. With the way they're hiring some technically adept RIAA's people, this isn't outside the realm of possibility. And our pages often come up rather early on Google rankings, I've noticed.
Still: people that are against the RIAA's actions are a dime a dozen. We aren't THAT noticable. Webfork

Hello! - Is there a PeopleIndex here, from where i can create my homepage?? ...anyway - I do it from here, my interest in the IA topics has rised in the last months, so i need to join. - FlorianKonnertz

Just go ahead and use FlorianKonnertz or whatever and add yourself to the Name Pages. Welcome to iA. Webfork

A very old mirror of infoAnarchy is now up at a commercial Website FastFoodReviews.com for some reason. I don't know what this is about but its an excellent example of the FDL versus public domain licensing as well as the GPL versus BSD license. Wikipedia's information cannot be used in this way but iA's entries can be used for ANYTHING. FastFood takes out the usefulness of this Wiki site and adds advertisements. Webfork

ROFLMAO! That's like saying "donut" and "anarchy". The answer is: "huh?" What do these two have in common with each other in this subject, and in which way do they profit from this? Is it really a Bad Thing when people read the information we've all made up on some other site than iA? How about the fact they can't edit the information on the "mirror"? Double edged sword?
Anyway, when i read your post, i'm getting the impression you're a little bit upset by this? Feel Free to allow your additions to be licensed under a more strict license. I prefer an extremely liberal one (or none) on text because it makes the most sense to me: i do not care much for any commercial exploitation (perhaps i'd even like it), and what i wrote is the output of other information which i somehow was able to perceive. I wish other people this very same possibility of processing and do not wish to obstruct such -- dpi
No, I take a certain amount of pride in the fact that the work I do on here doesn't belong to me in any way. Its sort of like giving back. However, I read Richard Stallman's biography and he DID explain a situation just like this. Someone could legitimately mirror this site and, if iA were a little less reliable, just work as a commercial version of us. Which I think is lame. Webfork
Well i'm actually wondering wether the FDL wouldn't allow that kind of forking. The GPL certainly does and afaik the FDL does too. If FastFoodReviews still give the information back which they appear to do then they're playing on legal ground, possible just using iA Wiki to raise their Google ranking or something.
The commercial version of iA Wiki would not be profitable when iA Wiki or other non-profit groups are still improving the content to similar levels of quality as the commercial one. Ofcourse, some people are ignorant and/or wouldn't know about these non-profit efforts. Finally, wouldn't you be proud when you were among the ones who contributed to the information which has been spread? If by contributing to this Wiki spreading information isn't your goal i am wondering: what is your goal (beyond "giving back")?
(Note: This discussion is similar to "GPL vs. BSD") -- dpi

Oops, i've discovered a bug.

See this:

English auction, English Auction. Dutch auction, Dutch Auction.

None of these work. Now, see these:

[1], [2] [3], [4]

Only the ones with the minor a of auction work (1 and 3), but the content isn't available in the coresponding entries. Can some admin fix this so that the entries are available to the Wiki by clicing on English auction and Dutch auction? TIA.

I'm not gonna try reproducing this but here is what happened: I went to Dutch Auction then decided a minor a would be better. Above in my URL i replaced the A with an a and started editting futher. Then i clicked save and the entry wasn't there, but it was when i did edit and replaced the A with an a. Somehow the same happened with English Auction -- dpi

I noticed something was amiss here too. - ABliss
Hmm, they got added after the migration. -- dpi

[...]

(Moved parts from Troll-Friendly/Talk to here. For the context, see Troll-Friendly/Talk) -- dpi

Resume, [Going a bit offtopic from here.] if iA Wiki migrates to MediaWiki, iA Wiki requires contributors to start an account which raises the barrier for contributors who have an itch and want to add in only a minor way. One result is that it'll become a more closed group without many new people who join. A likely result IMO. Is that what we want? If not, how do we limit this implication while still reducing spam and/or trolls? I was thinking that the Wiki should in some way encourage legitimate people to join in, while somehow doing the opposite to spammers and trolls. But.. how? -- dpi, looking forwards to the migration.

Regarding MediaWiki and user registration; It at current level of spam I will get bored of reverting it at some point. I'm not sure enough new people will arrive and help with spam removal to keep up. If the spam increases by three or four times it will be more than we can cope with. Spammers may start abusing wiki's in more intelligent ways that are harder to block.

I'd like to keep anonymous editing but somthing will have to be done sooner or later.

I have a few ideas that are alternatives to requiring user registration. These all need changes to the wiki software.

Make it take less time to revert spam by giving registered users an option that displays the last four revisions on one page with a one click revert button.

Give registered users a "revert all changes by a paticular ip address in a two hour period" button.

I think Erik said this is a feature of MediaWiki already. I could be incorrect... we'll know soon. -schvin

Start blocking edit's that contain URL's that have been spammed before.

Detect the same URL being posted to multiple entrys.

Perhaps this discussion should be moved somewhere that more people will read it. - ziv

Great! Anyone with PHP skills willing to implement this in MediaWiki? As for moving the discussion, i moved this from Troll-Friendly/Talk to iA Wiki/Talk -- dpi
The key point for me is that the spam stops. Its already way out of control. Me and the sysadmins have gone over numberous possibilities and this is the only one Schvin or Erik seem available to. Re-enabling anonymous additions should be step two in this process. MediaWiki is step one, AFAIK. Webfork

Thanks for the migration.

When i edit an entry it says (on the bottom): "Please note that all contributions to infoAnarchy Wiki are considered to be released under the GNU Free Documentation License (see iA:Copyrights for details). If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here. You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource. DO NOT SUBMIT COPYRIGHTED WORK WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

Shouldn't "GNU Free Documentation License" be "Public domain"? Or: "Public domain unless otherwise noted"?

Also, i don't understand something regarding the CaSe SeNsItIvE formatting: Erik did Public Domain to Public domain. I stumbled across Operating Systems and wondered if i should do the same keeping in mind "OS" means "Operating System". If Operating Systems should become Operating systems then i guess Operating System should also become Operating system because of consistency. Fine, but do you agree? Because i prefer not to do some radical change while there's no consensus and after that it'll have to be reverted...

Also, with this Wiki we are able to find those bogus entries; do a search for "Enter text" (which is part of "Enter the text of the new page here") or a search for "delete" and you see them. I hope someone will delete these. I've already noticed there are some entries in it which i considered done, and linked to when i saw these weren't linked to, while they were actually empty. -- dpi

I think we should generally have redirects from one variant to the other, and prefer the non-capitalized one unless it is a proper noun. So operating system would be my preference (capitalization of the first letter is irrelevant). Note that you should always use the "Move" feature, which leaves a redirect in place of the odl page.
Fine with me. I'll wait and see what other contributors think about it.
As for bogus entries, you can delete them now, I just made you a sysop. :-)
BTW, if you sign using the "sign" button in the toolbar, you will get a timestamp and a proper link to your user page.--Erik
Thanks. I've deleted all "Enter the text of the new page here" by searching to "enter text". Everything i have deleted (iA:Deletion_log) is also verified related the old wiki: i checked wether there was still usable information in the history. In 0% this was the case. Mostly, the pages were reverted because of spam, tests, and trolls. I wasn't sure about one entry: Using_File_Sharing_Networks/Refining_Your_Search (UseMod) because it was made by rack. I'm gonna search for "delete" now. Later, --Dpi 13:25, 31 Aug 2004 (GMT)
Eh, I wouldn't miss it if you killed the page.. =) -- Sy
Okies, then it ain't added. I was just wondering what its purpose was. On your Sy/Talk you said some of your entries weren't included in the migration. Which are they? How am i able to find out which they were? If you take the time to point me out (how to) get a list of these i'll happily add them here.
Also, "delete" has been done in the same manner as "Enter text". I wasn't sure on everything, though it was already marked for deletion. Feel free to use the UseMod archive to verify.

The spemmers seem to be back. Some solutions for it are proposed above by Ziv. I just got one too: those who are not logged in have to read a picture which has some characters. They'll to type these over, else their contribution ain't added. IIRC this is called "OCR". This would at least stop spem_bots_.

I'm really wondering what other bulk / cosmetic changes need to be made.

I noticed Erik deleted a few Talk's references in entries. I'd like to hunt some more. This should go fast as there's no need at all to verify wether it should be deleted; Talk's always exist, but i'm not sure wether this is okay. Is it? I see a lot of red links as Talk's. Is there something worng? Please help.

One last thing: "# (diff) (hist) . . N Help:Searching; 08:13 . . Conversion Script (Talk) (Imported from http://meta.wikipedia.org)" these imports from meta.wikipedia.org are probably not in the public domain since Wikipedia uses FDL. There seems to be some non-working links in it. And we need to adopt something like this to replace the UseMod-related pages which need to be deleted/reformatted. -- Dpi

With regard to spam, we should use two tools for now: 1) Rollback. If you're a sysop, when you diff view a change or a set of changes, you'll get a "[rollback]" link at the right side. This will undo all recent contributions by that user to the page. Note that if you turn on the Enhanced Recent Changes in your prefs, you can easily get a summary diff of recent changes to a single page. 2) Instant blocking. Block periods of 3 days to 7 days should be a good deterrent. You can block anonymous IPs directly from the Recent Changes page. As the number of sysop grows, these combined methods should help us deal with spam quite effectively.
What you are referring to is a "captcha". OCR is optical character recognition, used by special software to transform scanned images into text files. It could theoretically be used to defeat some captchas. A captcha for links inserted by anonymous user has been discussed. If it will be implemented in MediaWiki then iA wiki will benefit from it at the next upgrade. Note that requests for enhancement to MediaWiki should go to MediaWiki's bug tracking system (here).
You're right about the FDL. This is not a problem, though, we just need to add a "This page is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License" footer under every page. An effective way to do this is to put the text into Template:FDL.I've created an FDL template with an optional "source" parameter which can contain the name of the webpage where the page is copied from. You can use this template by inserting either {{FDL}} or {{FDL|source=some website}}. The default source is Wikipedia.
All the old "/Talk" links should be removed/changed to point to "Talk:". Remaining "/Talk" pages, if any, should be moved into the Talk:-namespace.--Erik


There are broken links due to capitalisation. We need a definitive statement of the prefered way of capitalising links to avoid unnecessary work when making links consistant. I don't want to change lots of links to [[Open Source]] then find it should be [[Open source] I suggest capitalising just the first word.The rule should be to use a space instead of a dash except where normal use of the phase commonly has a dash. Thoughts? ziv

Again, the capitalization of the first letter doesn't matter. Both open Source and Open Source will work. So using all lower-case except for proper nouns seems like the best solution to me.--Erik
I searched for [[/Talk]] and am busy removing all of the mentions because there's a "discussion" button above an entry in this wiki. It'll take some time though.
Almost all are done. There are some special cases there, some correct Talk:Entry, and some entries which use the word talk now. That's it. Only the special casesneed to be looked at (e.g. the BitTorrent sub-pages). -- dpi
What to do with Homepage vs Home Page? We can use Homepage again. If we're gonna do a bulk transition (e.g. move massive amounts because of CaSe SeNsiTiVe) deciding on a detail like this is just great since it saves work. I suggest we move to Homepage again because that's not in use right now. We'll 'have to' change it in any case because of the capital P... also consider if we use Homepage this breaks backward compatibility, FWIW.
Regarding mod_rewrite: Will Google now see the new pages and index these also? Do you want to keep this backward compatibility forever?
I'll check out the feature request page you mentioned, thanks for the explanation.
Finally regarding the name scheme. I still don't get it. Say there is entry Social Engineering. Moving it to Social engineering or social engineering won't matter since its called Social engineering anyway. Now, what do i link _to_ from other pages? Social engineering or social engineering? -- Dpi
PS: One other thing to consider. We used to do.
Home Page: http://www.infoanarchy.org
Acronym: iA
Do we still want that space before it? What are the alternives?

Oh yes! This wiki has shortcuts which really raise productivity and result in no mousearm. For example, i'm using now: open up 30 windows -> alt+e (edit) -> tab (on bottom) -> del (deleting /Talk) -> alt+s (save) -> ctrl+w (close window) -> next. Increased my productivity from 2 per minute to 6-8 per minute. -- dpi


OK if i start the huge effort of renaming [[<b>C</b>apital <b>E</b>ntries]] to [[<b>C</b>apital entries]] on those of which i'm sure of? If not, please argument why. I have some free time for the upcomming weeks, so... also, i don't really get in which situations i shouldn't do this.

My proposal is the following steps.

  • 1) Move entries to a [[New name]].
  • 2) Edit info in entries to [[New name]].
  • 3) Wait.
  • 4) After Google syndicated use the [[New name]] and Delete the old ones.

Note: 2 can wait a little while and 4 as well, even more, but 1 (and in less extent, 2) is pretty much needed for setting the standard.

I really appreciate help when i'm doing these steps and feedback before i'm doing so. It'll cost massive amount of time and energy. Being uncertain other contributors agree with the effort, or support it, does not contribute to my willingness to do this. It's gonna cost some time, but i believe it'll be worth it. We need to agree before one does mass work though because else, as i said, it might not have been the best solution or it was all for nothing. After such is done the Wiki can easily be used for the purposes we used it with Usemod + all the nice benefits! :) so after some unpleasant time it'll be fun and clear again. Perhaps a script would do most of the bulk? -- Dpi.

Anonymous editing disabled

I've disabled anonymous editing for now - I'm tired of the spammers. Logging in takes less than a minute.--Erik

schvin wrote "if there are ways to automate some of the cleanup, just shoot me an email."

One thing which needs to be done is converting all Higher Case to Lower case so you get Higher Case to Lower case. One could do this by using the web interface of the Wiki or directly via MySQL. If you grab the total # of entries and start at #1, check if the entry is Higher Case, then grab that data to create a new entry, and delete/modify the old one to redirect to the new one, you got it right. Then continue with #2. Etc. There are some entries in there which are bogus and actually should be Higher Case. Since that's a minority (== assumption) that can be done later, manually. Also, links in entries which link to Higher Case entries need to be changed. One could argue the redirection is not necessary if this is done directly, but a script which does that automagically is also a lot more complex.

Is there anyone here who knows a bit about MySQL? Sh/Perl/C whatever + MySQL would do this. As alternative one could use the current PHP code of MediaWiki and use that. Perhaps such script already exists?

Manual way just costs way too much time and is boooring IMO.

PS: ofcourse, back-up and testing first.

Spam

Hah, i think i have THE solution for these Chinese spam punks: asking Google China if they want to unlist this page from Google. First of all, this is obviously meant to promote his page whereas only Chinese people search for it. More important is that this website contains information the Chinese COMMUNIST and DICTATORIAL government doesn't like anyway. Given Google China is gonna block 'controversial websites' from the point of China's view (which is CENSORSHIP), why would this website be included in Google. Its probably not according to their ideals. So there's no loss and everyone is happy. We western people can't read Chinese so the reason to spam doesn't exist anymore.

Oh and please ban this Ec51 droid. --Dpi 02:03, 2 Oct 2004 (GMT)

PS: Special:Contributions&target=Ec51 is a good way to look for what he has done. Big brother is watching you! -- dpi

Upper_Case to Lower_case conversion

Hey all,

i'm starting the next major editting project: Moving Upper_Case entries to Lower_case entries. I'm using 'move', so there's backwards compatibility. However, i'm trying to do it 'right' and therefore also change links to the Upper_Case entries to Lower_case entries. A lot of work! (but with a bit of patience its worth it in the end).

There are some problems though. E.g. assume the entry public relations. We know there's an acronym for this, named PR. IMO, PR should therefore direct to public relations and the redirect from public Relations (note: is same as Public Relations) to public relations are okay. If there is a different meaning for PR as well, make PR a seperate entry with brief description of the 2 entries, then link to both.

So, schematic, it'd be Acronym -> Lower_case Upper_Case -> Lower_case (Assuming its a common acronym or commonly used as-is.)

Or Upper_Case -> Lower_case -- as temporarily measure, until everything is migrated to Lower_case and we can start clearing it all up. It'll also break Google et al, but only temp. After that, only Lower_case (as decided earlier -- !!!). Why? Because its not an acronym or commonly used as such. For example, 'OS' is not a common acronym for 'Open Source', but both FOSS and FLOSS are common acronyms related to 'open source'; hence only 'open source' as entry (same as 'Open source' since first letter doesn't matter).

Should be clear now. PS note how the _ is not actually necessary in entries its added to clearify the issue.

... RFE / RFC! -- dpi


Think we need to sift through all the new open proxies out there and block them. Hopefully that will eventually clear up the spam. Right now all this wiki does is kill spam. Hopefully that clears up soon. Really want to start employing blacklists but unless the administrators are up to doing more work, we just keep it up. --Webfork 03:51, 8 December 2005 (GMT)